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 | Saturday, August 16, 2008 at 8:43:15 mst
Comment ID: #1
Name: Steve D'Ippolito
This does make me wonder what Objectivists have to say about the situation.
Objectivist writers forcefully and repeatedly have fought for the right of women to abort a pregnancy before it becomes a child. What happens when it is the *man* who does not want the child? (I know the answer is *not* that he can force her to have an abortion!)
Should he be allowed to legally refuse to accept responsibility for the child? Under current law he will be held responsible even if the woman represented to him that she has had a hysterectomy. Not only that but in some cases they can retroactively come after him if he is simply acting as a sperm donor (under formal contract, even) for another couple where it is either a lesbian couple, or the man is sterile--even if it was done with a syringe.
Under our current laws a woman (rightly) cannot be pressed into 18 years of slavery because she becomes pregnant. But the man in question can be. |
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| Saturday, August 16, 2008 at 9:51:18 mst
Comment ID: #2
Name: Dan G.
I've considered this topic and I believe received some insight to the solution based on some facts I garnered from reading about Ben Franklin. In his time, I believe, that a child born out of wedlock (a bastard) was solely the responsibility of the mother and/or her family. I haven't followed it up and would appreciate any leads if any one has anything. I don't have an eloquent reason to back it, but such a system seems more fair. |
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| Saturday, August 16, 2008 at 12:13:00 mst
Comment ID: #3
Name: Richard
E-mail: rbramwell(at)sympatico.ca
I see the man's producing legitimate papers as just. Even allowing her to entrap herself further is just.
However, his sleeping with her betrays his own values. I could not do that, period. It would be akin to sleeping with a Neanderthal. Worse, it is a secondary fraud by him, perpetrated on her. It is a wrong that makes nothing right.
So, why is his having sex with her in the middle of his exposing her fraud, "funny"? |
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| Saturday, August 16, 2008 at 13:24:18 mst
Comment ID: #4
Name: Sajid
To Richard:
I am not very good at these things, but I think its because she was trying to use him and he ended up using her instead. Yes, technically he would be betraying his own values, but sex is very emotional and many times a woman will pretend she is into you just to make sure you have a good time (sort of like prostitution in which the women pretends to be your dream come true in exchange for money). She probably pretended to be the perfect woman for him in bed in exchange for trying to get him to marry her (just like a prostitute). She failed.
Once again this is just speculation as I dont have too much first hand (or even second hand) experience in these matters :(. |
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| Saturday, August 16, 2008 at 13:24:26 mst
Comment ID: #5
Name: Mike
E-mail: mikedialjatnetscapedotnet
I don't believe this story, but it's wicked good. The ends are tied up a little too neat, and play a little too much to men's prejudices about women being only after their money, to be true. Great short story for Playboy, though. |
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| Saturday, August 16, 2008 at 13:54:41 mst
Comment ID: #6
Name: z
E-mail: shekfu(at)hotmail.com
The story is very neat and tidy, maybe including a little artistic license. But I have heard this story independently from at least two men who said it happened to them. To me, it is highly believable. I'm sure this happens often to lots of men who've had the procedure. The thing that jumps out at me as a little bit of a stretch is how the guy so responsibly wears a condom every time and coolly documents his position and performs his...uh, counterinsurgency, but he can't apply his reason to attracting anything better than a manipulative skank. Questionable, but not doubtful. My question is, did he still try to wear a condom after she was pregnant? He doesn't say. Obviously, he would have wanted to, but what did she think of this? Wouldn't she have gone "batshit"???? |
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| Saturday, August 16, 2008 at 14:43:11 mst
Comment ID: #7
Name: Paul Hsieh
E-mail: paul(at)geekpress(dot)com
URL: http://www.geekpress.com
Perhaps his final act of sex with her was his way of saying (both literally as well as figuratively), "You're screwed..." |
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| Saturday, August 16, 2008 at 16:47:44 mst
Comment ID: #8
Name: Richard Watts
E-mail: rw1963(at)earthlink.net
Steve,
I agree that no one has a right to try to force a woman to have an abortion. That would be just as wrong as forcing her to give birth -- and for the same reason. She has a right to her choice over her own life. On the other side of the same coin, the demands of others who seek to usurp her choice place no moral obligation on her. One is responsible only for one's own choices.
For that reason, if the father does not agree to help support the child or to help raise it, he has no moral obligation to do so, and it should be legal for him to refuse to accept responsibility for the child. If the woman chooses to give birth to the child, absent any commitment from him, that is her choice only -- he has no choice in this. He can try to persuade her to have an abortion, but the decision is hers. Her choice to have a child does not give her nor anyone else the right to enslave him. |
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| Saturday, August 16, 2008 at 19:06:03 mst
Comment ID: #9
Name: Jim May
E-mail: seerak(at)gmail.com
This guy definitely has some cynicism regarding women... and this particular female didn't help matters :P
Dan. G: Funny you should bring up Ben Franklin... he recommended older women. (Hey, it worked for me! My fiance is 56).
http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/bdorsey1/41docs/51-fra.html
...
But if you will not take this Counsel, and persist in thinking a Commerce with the Sex inevitable, then I repeat my former Advice, that in all your Amours you should prefer old Women to young ones. You call this a Paradox, and demand my Reasons. They are these:
i. Because as they have more Knowledge of the World and their Minds are better stor'd with Observations, their Conversation is more improving and more lastingly agreable.
2. Because when Women cease to be handsome, they study to be good. To maintain their Influence over Men, they supply the Diminution of Beauty by an Augmentation of Utility. They learn to do a 1000 Services small and great, and are the most tender and useful of all Friends when you are sick. Thus they continue amiable. And hence there is hardly such a thing to be found as an old Woman who is not a good Woman.
3. Because there is no hazard of Children, which irregularly produc'd may be attended with much Inconvenience.
4. Because thro' more Experience, they are more prudent and discreet in conducting an Intrigue to prevent Suspicion. The Commerce with them is therefore safer with regard to your Reputation. And with regard to theirs, if the Affair should happen to be known, considerate People might be rather inclin'd to excuse an old Woman who would kindly take care of a young Man, form his Manners by her good Counsels, and prevent his ruining his Health and Fortune among mercenary Prostitutes.
5. Because in every Animal that walks upright, the Deficiency of the Fluids that fill the Muscles appears first in the highest Part: The Face first grows lank and wrinkled; then the Neck; then the Breast and Arms; the lower Parts continuing to the last as plump as ever: So that covering all above with a Basket, and regarding2 only what is below the Girdle, it is impossible of two Women to know an old from a young one. And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement.
6. Because the Sin is less. The debauching a Virgin may be her Ruin, and make her for Life unhappy.
7. Because the Compunction is less. The having made a young Girl miserable may give you frequent bitter Reflections; none of which can attend the making an old Woman happy.
8thly and Lastly They are so grateful!!
... |
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| Saturday, August 16, 2008 at 19:51:55 mst
Comment ID: #10
Name: Dan G.
Jim,
That is a wonderful find! |
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| Sunday, August 17, 2008 at 1:49:10 mst
Comment ID: #11
Name: Diana Hsieh
E-mail: diana(at)dianahsieh.com
URL: http://www.dianahsieh.com/blog
My view is that a man (absent any prior agreement) should be able to opt out of child-rearing if the woman he's boinking gets accidentally pregnant. Then she can decide whether to have an abortion or not. Sex shouldn't create an 18 year obligation for a man any more than it ought to do so for a woman. |
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| Sunday, August 17, 2008 at 5:12:23 mst
Comment ID: #12
Name: Galileo Blogs
E-mail: rayniles(at)rcniles.com
URL: http://galileoblogs.blogspot.com
Jim,
That is a great passage from Franklin, and shows why he is the most worldly of men, and one of my favorite Founding Fathers. For no particular reason, it reminds me of a lesson on the mortal dangers of combining radiation and sex from the physicist Petr Beckmann. Beckmann, in writings such as "The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear," explains how radiation must be understood, not feared. Nevertheless, there are occasions when we should exercise extreme caution. In particular, he points out, each one of us is radioactive. We have radioactive isotopes in our own blood. As a result, Professor Beckmann cautions us that sleeping with one woman is okay, but sleeping with two women at the same time is very, very dangerous.
Although Franklin did not have the benefit of such knowledge of physics to guide him, I think that this is advice he would appreciate. |
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| Sunday, August 17, 2008 at 9:56:54 mst
Comment ID: #13
Name: Amy
E-mail: mossoffa(at)gmail.com
URL: http://www.amymossoff.com
I think both of the players in this story are repugnant. And not just because, as Richard noted, the man slept with the woman while entrapping her. The whole tone of the story betrays the man's character: he seemed to WANT this to happen and HE was just as giddy as the woman when he put one over on her. He wasn't protecting himself or achieving justice - he was getting off on hurting somebody (even if that someone was viciously dishonest). What an ass. |
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| Sunday, August 17, 2008 at 13:45:39 mst
Comment ID: #14
Name: Robert Nasir
E-mail: RobtNasir(at)yahoo.com
URL: http://robertnasir.com
Amy, I couldn't agree more, and I suspect you, like I, have even more reasons for being disgusted with this idiot's behavior than you listed.
Even setting his motives aside, his dishonesty - and in a personal, intimate, sexual context - is profane.
The fact that he would want sex, and follow through on that desire, with a woman for which he has contempt is conclusively damning.
The only bright side is that I don't believe the story is true. |
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| Sunday, August 17, 2008 at 16:15:21 mst
Comment ID: #15
Name: rrlv-frsh
A little belatedly, here is my own take on the story (reinforcing views expressed by Amy and others).
This little story, which may be more fiction than fact, depicts two characters living in a universe where there is no necessary connection between mind and body -- where sex has no necessary connection to anything resembling romantic love proceeding from mutual affinity for mutually held values.
The woman cares nothing for the man beyond a meal ticket and roof provider, if she can deceive him so blatantly, or if she is so promiscuous as not to have any idea who the true father might actually be. The man sees sex as some kind of "jousting" game to see who can out-maneuver whom, while giving him some purely physical "gratification" along the way (justified in his mind as "teaching her a lesson" at the same time).
It's a universe that goes far deeper than merely the ethics of deception. And without Ayn Rand (and the Enlightenment view of reason), it's a universe that too many people today may take for granted.
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| Sunday, August 17, 2008 at 17:19:01 mst
Comment ID: #16
Name: Tony Donadio
E-mail: tdonadio(at)optonline.net
It's too bad things didn't work out for them. Those two deserved each other. |
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| Monday, August 18, 2008 at 9:21:58 mst
Comment ID: #17
Name: Rachel
E-mail: raemeg(at)gmail.com
Just as they say about rape: It isn't about the sex. It's about the power. What a monster. |
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| Monday, August 18, 2008 at 9:59:14 mst
Comment ID: #18
Name: Al Myers
E-mail: mearsly(at)hotmail.com
The story is obviously apocryphal. Even if true, the man was a perfect asshole, and so are you for thinking the story was funny. |
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| Monday, August 18, 2008 at 11:11:46 mst
Comment ID: #19
Name: Diana Hsieh
E-mail: diana(at)dianahsieh.com
URL: http://www.dianahsieh.com/blog
Sorry folks, but I still find the story funny. Why? Because the woman was -- morally speaking -- much, much worse than the man. And she deserved what she got from him.
Undoubtedly, the guy is a amoral: he has no grasp of the actual values involved in sex and relationships. However, what the woman attempted to do -- namely to deceive him into 18 years of servitude via a child that wasn't even his -- is far, far worse than his sin of casual sex. Note that, if he'd accepted the child as his and married her, he would have been on the hook for 18 years, even if he later discovered -- and could prove to the court -- that the child was fathered by someone else. She would have happily used the power of the state to force every last dime from him, if possible. That's evil.
If thinking that makes me a "perfect asshole," so be it. |
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| Monday, August 18, 2008 at 15:31:34 mst
Comment ID: #20
Name: Jim May
E-mail: seerak(at)gmail.com
Well, perhaps then it might be a good question for Noodlefood: is it ever proper to experience "schadenfreude"?
The definition is (from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude")
"Schadenfreude (IPA: [ˈʃaːdənˌfʁ"ʏ̯də] Audio (German) (help·info)) is enjoyment taken from the misfortune of someone else. "
To me, at first blush, I can't see why I should eer take such a pleasure. But upon further reflection, there IS a pleasure in seeing someone get their just desserts, both good and bad.
That may not be the exact same issue as finding the deserved misfortune of evil people funny, but it's something I've wondered about for a while. |
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