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 | Monday, July 14, 2008 at 2:03:26 mst
Comment ID: #1
Name: Rory
E-mail: futurebebop(at)gmail.com
It seems like that whole Issue is a collection of bad-ass Objectivist philosophers.
Nice article, Roderick. |
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 | Monday, July 14, 2008 at 4:35:32 mst
Comment ID: #2
Name: EB
URL: http://the-undercurrent.com/
Rod/Diana,
You should check the links in this article. They seem not to work. Also, it also seems like the articles in the journal are in fact inaccessible.
Thanks. |
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 | Monday, July 14, 2008 at 4:54:57 mst
Comment ID: #3
Name: Burgess Laughlin
E-mail: burgesslaughlin(at)macforcego.com
URL: http://www.aristotleadventure.blogspot.com
Congratulations to Roderick Fitts for writing a clear, straight-forward, and informative article about a crucial topic. Among the valuable points he makes is one that appears in a footnote:
"[5] Another implication Smith points out in the paper is that Rand's view of moral objectivity rejects a single list of values, identical for everyone (which is usually a characteristic of the moral objectivism position in philosophy)."
Mr. Fitts, reporting Dr. Smith's position, has here indirectly highlighted a fundamental difference between Objectivism and objectivism. In Objectivism, the philosophy of Ayn Rand, objectivity, as a term, names two ideas that have an implication for a third one:
(1) Metaphysical (ontological) meaning of objectivity: existence of things outside and independent of the mind.
(2) Epistemological meaning of objectivity: a relationship between an idea in the mind and a thing outside the mind, a relationship of logical inference.
(3) Ethical meaning of objectivity: a value is derived logically from an independent fact of reality.
In traditional history of philosophy, according to my understanding, "objectivism" refers only to the first: things (including values) exist independently of consciousness. The difference between Objectivism and objectivism is thus not merely a typographical one, but a radical one, in epistemology and therefore in ethics. |
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 | Monday, July 14, 2008 at 6:29:19 mst
Comment ID: #4
Name: Diana Hsieh
E-mail: diana(at)dianahsieh.com
URL: http://www.dianahsieh.com/blog
EB -- The links work fine for me. (And I'm working from home, not at school, so that's not the issue.) |
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 | Monday, July 14, 2008 at 9:16:56 mst
Comment ID: #5
Name: Roderick Fitts
E-mail: rodfitts(at)gmail.com
EB -- The links worked for my laptop, which doesn't have special access to philosophy journals this summer (I'm not taking courses at the University of Michigan this spring and summer semester). They also work for my grandfather's computer, and he has no special access, either.
Rory/Burgess -- Thanks, I had a lot of fun writing it.
The distinction between Objectivism's view of "objective values" and Moral objectivism's (i.e. Intrinsicist) view is definitely a /big/ difference, one which Smith thinks can further the "objectivism/subjectivism" debate in ethics (personally, I think it will show that the debate is artificial, at best).
A quick summary for any newcomers: the "debate" is about whether we determine moral truths on our own, or if they exist regardless of what we think about them. The "subjectivists" take the first view, giving us (individually or socially/culturally) the power to determine what "moral facts" are, no matter how we go about doing it. The "objectivists" take the other view, that "moral truths" exist /within/ certain things, and must simply be dealt with in a manner similar to physical facts.
Both positions are wrong, according to Objectivism--they are wrong in how they ascribe reality to values (the metaphysics of values) and specifically what role they say our minds play in the existence of values (the epistemology of values). I couldn't explain precisely why they're wrong (to my satisfaction) here in the comments, but I think it would be an interesting topic for the future. |
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 | Monday, July 14, 2008 at 10:44:30 mst
Comment ID: #6
Name: Oist Newbie
E-mail: onew93(at)yahoo.com
How many different ethical systems have been offered? I know egoism and altruism are the main two but are they the only two? There is Divine Command Theory and that is altruistic. But what of the virtue ethical systems? Isn't that what Aristotle's system was? And how is hedonism to be classified? Was Rand's ethics the first egoist morality or was it the first consistent (non-compromised) egoist morality? |
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 | Monday, July 14, 2008 at 11:01:55 mst
Comment ID: #7
Name: William H. Stoddard
E-mail: whswhs(at)mindspring.com
URL: http://whswhs.livejournal.com/
Smith's discussion of values seems to dovetail, in a way that might not be obvious, with the conference's title. The Objectivist of value is relativistic, not in the sense in which philosophers use the term, but in the more precise sense in which it was previously used in the physical sciences.
Einstein said, for example, that the mass of an electron was relative to the observer: different observers would measure different masses depending on their velocities relative to the electron. But Einstein did NOT say that the mass of an electron was subjective, or that any physicist was free to assign it whatever mass they liked. For each observer, there was one correct mass for the electron, and there were certain valid procedures for measuring its mass, which would all give the same result, up to each procedure's level of accuracy of measurement. That is, the mass was objective. Moreover, there was a quantity, the "rest mass," which could be computed by any observer, and which would be the same for all observers. This was called an "invariant," and I have read that in the original German, Einstein described his theory as an Invariententheorie, a theory of invariants, not as "relativity theory."
In THAT sense of relativity, values are relative to the organisms involved. For example, carbon dioxide, water, and minerals will nourish a green plant; cellulose will nourish a termite or a sheep; but neither will do a cat or a dragonfly any good. But for each organism, there are substances that have objective nutritional value for it, and others that don't, even though those are different substances for different kinds of organisms. Value is relative to the organism, but not subjective.
Similarly, within a species, value is relative to individual differencesâ€"for example, a newborn mammal needs milk, but an adult mammal does not, and typically cannot digest it; that is, value is relative to age, and likewise to sex.
Relativity of value also applies within the human species, in particular. See Ayn Rand's example of the stenographer buying lipstick rather than saving for an (improbable) medical emergency. Identifying all the factors that make different things objectively valuable to different people would be a huge question. But neither throwing up one's hands and saying, "You can choose to value anything you please," nor declaring that the same things are automatically valuable for everybody, is a satisfactory way of dealing with the issue. Your examples neatly illustrate this.
I suspect that, ultimately, it will be necessary to view ethics not merely as an applied science rather than a theoretical science, but as an art as well as an applied science. |
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 | Monday, July 14, 2008 at 12:11:02 mst
Comment ID: #8
Name: Roderick Fitts
E-mail: rodfitts(at)gmail.com
Oist Newbie -- There are many ethical systems, and several distinctions (theories) within each system. I haven't studied Ethical philosophy to the extent that I could honestly say how many have existed, though.
I don't think egoism and altruism are major positions in ethics--rather, I think they are implications of the basis for an ethical code.
Aristotle's system is (in my opinion) the quintessential Virtue Ethical system, I would say it is egoistic (i.e. Aristotle's view that we should seek our own eudaimonia, and become a "great-souled" person).
Hedonism, in the Epicurean sense, was a type of egoism, but I think it has a mistaken view of egoism, and of what grounds a moral code (I don't think pleasure does). Modern hedonism is an even more corrupted form of egoism, ignoring future consequences and merely indulging in immediate pleasurable activities (the Greek philosopher Aristippus' statement "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die" fits very well with this modern version). There are altruistic forms of hedonism: for instance, Utilitarianism (whether Bentham's or Mill's).
I think Rand's view is the first consistent form of egoism which can give us practical guidance in living (and hence the strongest form). |
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 | Monday, July 14, 2008 at 14:42:35 mst
Comment ID: #9
Name: Mike
E-mail: atlas51184(at)comcast.net
EB,
If you try to do the right click, open in new window/tab thing, it wont work. Left click the link for html or pdf. That might help. |
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 | Tuesday, July 15, 2008 at 10:18:57 mst
Comment ID: #10
Name: Ritu
Great synopsis, Roderick. |
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